The Gaming Den

tzor at [unixtime wrote:1190640344[/unixtime]]D20 Modern was one of those ideas where the wrong things were gutted from the system leaving only the inferior crunch parts.

That sums up my opinion of d20 modern most succinctly.

I was seduced by the "classless" adaptable feel, then realized that there wasn't enough good stuff left to customize.

I looked at LAGO's comments, and decided to do some customization to make D20 Modern a less "broken" game:

1.) None of that Urban Arcana "delusion" crap. I'm using my own setting. And yes, when you cast a spell or transform into a dragon, people notice.
2.) In most of my campaigns, Spellcasters would be NPCs, bad guys, or MacGuffins.
3.) Hide and Move Silently have been combined into Stealth, because failing either makes you become "detected." Listen and Spot are still separate.
4.) As Evasion is so INCREDIBLY powerful compared to every single talent, I am considering disallowing it, except for certain Advanced Classes.
5.) Make the Techie more useful instead of being a "guy in R&D." Probably make him grant temporary Mastercraft to items in the middle of combat.
6.) Possibly Reduce the Fast Hero's Skill Points to 3+ Int Mod, so it will not be so superior to the other classes.
7.) Replace the Soldier with the Officer. Or allow the Unerrata'd Soldier alongside the Officer.
8.) People are merely dazed from nonlethal damage that exceeds or equals their Damage Threshold, and cannot be coup-de-graced.

How are these ideas so far?

Also, what do you guys think of Wushu RPG? I am looking for reviews on it and the system to see if it looks like a good purchase.

1.) None of that Urban Arcana "delusion" crap. I'm using my own setting. And yes, when you cast a spell or transform into a dragon, people notice.

That's the only thing I see in your list that changes the campaign world. Are you running a campaign setting in a modern world?

There's a reason why Urban Arcana (and Shadowrun) do things the way they do. Lets start with Shadowrun--in this setting, though magic isn't available to everyone, its existence is proven and well-documented. There are entire mundane publishing companies that don't do anything but track the habits of earth spirits.

Furthermore, there's no such thing as magical items. Well, not in the sense that D&D is used to. There is equipment that extends beyond the ken of science but they operate by the universal rules. There are no such things as immovable rods, backpacks of holding, or even a +2 unholy longsword.

And monsters... except for spirits, dragons, naga, sasquatch, and a couple of other oddballs, monster species are few and far in between. Things like vampires, elves, and trolls are MUTATED HUMANS, not their own race with a varied backstory.

Urban Arcana doesn't have these assumptions. When things like living dumpsters and angels and eldritch cell phones pop up, they fundamentally change the nature of society. Magic in Shadowrun required a whole fucking new paradigm for civilization; just the existence of ritual spellcasting in d20 would rip it a new one, let alone things like GODS.

If this stuff was introduced into a simulation of our world? Mass panic. Hell, magic was introduced at a relatively slow and sane pace in Shadowrun and it still tore the most powerful nation on Earth apart. You cannot convince me to believe that if people saw a green dragon or a horde of skeletons running around violating the laws of physics that people would up in arms and do everything they can to kill these otherworldly invaders.

While a scorched earth Judge Doom-style setting where mundane forces are locked in a bitter struggle with refugees from a fantasy world would be a kickass setting, realize that this is where you're heading if you lift the 'mundane people can't see fantasy' veil from the setting with no other alterations.

4.) As Evasion is so INCREDIBLY powerful compared to every single talent, I am considering disallowing it, except for certain Advanced Classes.

What da? Evasion as an ability is a nice bonus in D&D, not a game-defining holy grail ability like it is in d20 modern. This is partly because talents for the most part SUCK (I like opportunist, though), but also because people in d20 modern use machine guns and explosives and shit.

If you don't have evasion, your PCs are going to drop like crazy against a few mooks with machine guns and grenades. They already have to fight that stupid massive damage rule; don't screw low-level characters even more.

1.) There are certain "pockets" of magic in certain locations. The magnitude of the pocket determines the "power level" of spells. Magic pockets are literally "one-in-a-million," and are NEVER near highly populated areas, as humanity seems to have an "magic repellent." Due to this, the vast majority of spell casters live in low-population or wilderness areas.
2.) Magic "pockets" have a life of their own, and die off with time. They are very short-lived next to human years, about 1-2 decades at the very most.

Shadowrun's Goblinization Day(s) was some of the dumbest plot device/setting I've seen in all RPGs I've ever played.
Urban Arcana's overlay-of-worlds is more workable than the Shadowrun 'history'.

And there's nothin wrong with a lil Doom style RPG <_<

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1190682702[/unixtime]]Shadowrun's Goblinization Day(s) was some of the dumbest plot device/setting I've seen in all RPGs I've ever played.
Urban Arcana's overlay-of-worlds is more workable than the Shadowrun 'history'.

And there's nothin wrong with a lil Doom style RPG <_<

Sort of off topic; is there a rules system out there that Frank Trollmann likes other than his house-ruled versions, because he apparently seems to hate all RPG game systems.

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1190655997[/unixtime]]

4.) As Evasion is so INCREDIBLY powerful compared to every single talent, I am considering disallowing it, except for certain Advanced Classes.

What da? Evasion as an ability is a nice bonus in D&D, not a game-defining holy grail ability like it is in d20 modern. This is partly because talents for the most part SUCK (I like opportunist, though), but also because people in d20 modern use machine guns and explosives and shit.

If you don't have evasion, your PCs are going to drop like crazy against a few mooks with machine guns and grenades. They already have to fight that stupid massive damage rule; don't screw low-level characters even more.

So should I up the power of the other talents, then?
Or use another thing other than Massive Damage Threshold. What about the Condition Track, like in Star Wars SAGA?

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190687676[/unixtime]]
Sort of off topic; is there a rules system out there that Frank Trollmann likes other than his house-ruled versions, because he apparently seems to hate all RPG game systems.

He speaks very highly of Shadowrun. That's probably the one he likes the best. I'm not sure if any others have gotten praise.

What is it about Shadowrun that he likes?
Also, overall, would Shadowrun be worthwhile RPG for the Cyberpunk genre if I decided to run such a game?

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190691734[/unixtime]]What is it about Shadowrun that he likes?
Also, overall, would Shadowrun be worthwhile RPG for the Cyberpunk genre if I decided to run such a game?

I would say yes, since it has pretty much all the elements of cyberpunk.

He likes that the core game mechanic is relatively balanced. The game mechanic he proposed for dead man's hand are very similar.

He doesn't like the character generation/character advancement dichotomy. He has proposed rules called 'house rules de santa cruz' on the dumpshocked.com forums (do a search).

I have to say I like the system overall except the matrix is a bit crappy as written.

Edit: I would recommend it for any near future game with magic and cyberware without blinking.

Shadowrun character creation is crappy yet has some good concepts. The implementation of it is a bit flawed.
For instance it values certain races over others, with human as one of the defaults. Which to pick hmm?
Cash, power, magic, or WHICH FUCKIN RACE YOU WERE BORN TO?

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1190655997[/unixtime]]If you don't have evasion, your PCs are going to drop like crazy against a few mooks with machine guns and grenades. They already have to fight that stupid massive damage rule; don't screw low-level characters even more.

Right, either everyone gets it or drop it and rebalence. Having some PCs be much more survivable than others is bad and we have a level based system to stop that.

[Edit] Fixed quote tags. [/Edit]

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1190711855[/unixtime]]Shadowrun character creation is crappy yet has some good concepts. The implementation of it is a bit flawed.
For instance it values certain races over others, with human as one of the defaults. Which to pick hmm?
Cash, power, magic, or WHICH FUCKIN RACE YOU WERE BORN TO?

I not even sure this is a problem. The Crazy (TM) valuations assigned to the various races is an issue, but as the races are really a melange of stat mods, making people pay for that is probably a good idea.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190691734[/unixtime]]What is it about Shadowrun that he likes?
Also, overall, would Shadowrun be worthwhile RPG for the Cyberpunk genre if I decided to run such a game?

He's actually written for Shadowrun.

I belatedly sense a mention of trying to improve d20modern by bringing in elements of Saga edition...

*sigh*

Do not use d20modern, do not try to fix it, do not introduce rules from its more recent crap incarnation as if that will fix it.

If you want to play a modern d20 game, try working from a completely different starting point, there are other d20 systems out there, and other non d20 ones to boot.

And hah, this is a shocker, but even you may be able to home brew from core d20 a better modern system than d20modern/Saga. No, REALLY!

The d20 modern and later Saga talent systems are just plain flat out unsalvagable. Even if you want a talent system you want nothing from THAT talent system in it.

Same with action points, even if you want them you don't want anthing from THAT implementation.

Same with the modern wealth system, the saga damage junk, and everything d20 future ever gibbered madly about into an empty and darkened room with padded walls.

You really just don't need or want that material, any of it.

At the very least if you do want to have a disfunctional screwy modern d20 system that makes PCs suck at least use d20cthulhu which does so much more directly and without the misleading crap like talents and character classes.

It would also be a much simpler starting point from which to try and fashion workable fixes and additions.

What Modern era RPG would you recommend, then?

wrote:What Modern era RPG would you recommend, then?

Why the fuck do you keep demanding these recommendations?

I know you have a hard on for fishing for some sorta platonic ideal of a dumb "I hate all RPGs" statement from Frank (and how has that been going for you?), but really.

And what the hell did I just say, I said you could homebrew a better modern d20 than d20 modern, that's me recommending that you HOME BREW SOMETHING.

And aside from that I really can't answer your latest incarnation of the question because its a stupid question.

"Modern Era RPG" what the hell is that anyway?

You want a horror RPG, and I'll be wanting clarifications on the style, maybe I got recommendations.

You want a James Bond RPG, maybe I got recommendations.

You want a Jackie Chan RPG, maybe I got recommendations.

You want a Sci Fi RPG, maybe I got recommendations.

etc...

If instead you want to play "Generic Modern" then my recommendation is you stop trying to do that because its dumb.

It either fails because it doesn't address the issues required by the games REAL genre, or it fails because simply trying to give guns to the Sims is just fucking retarded.

PhoneLobster at [unixtime wrote:1190858495[/unixtime]]

Captain_Bleach wrote:What Modern era RPG would you recommend, then?

Why the fuck do you keep demanding these recommendations?

fuckin riot... haha

"Don't use d20 modern!"
"Use what then?"
"Don't ask me!"

PhoneLobster at [unixtime wrote:1190858495[/unixtime]]

wrote:What Modern era RPG would you recommend, then?

Why the fuck do you keep demanding these recommendations?

I know you have a hard on for fishing for some sorta platonic ideal of a dumb "I hate all RPGs" statement from Frank (and how has that been going for you?), but really.

And what the hell did I just say, I said you could homebrew a better modern d20 than d20 modern, that's me recommending that you HOME BREW SOMETHING.

And aside from that I really can't answer your latest incarnation of the question because its a stupid question.

"Modern Era RPG" what the hell is that anyway?

You want a horror RPG, and I'll be wanting clarifications on the style, maybe I got recommendations.

You want a James Bond RPG, maybe I got recommendations.

You want a Jackie Chan RPG, maybe I got recommendations.

You want a Sci Fi RPG, maybe I got recommendations.

etc...

If instead you want to play "Generic Modern" then my recommendation is you stop trying to do that because its dumb.

It either fails because it doesn't address the issues required by the games REAL genre, or it fails because simply trying to give guns to the Sims is just fucking retarded.

To the Bold: We all have weird fetishes/desires that we express in our posts. Finding the "perfect RPG" is my desire, as are "dick and fart jokes" are many Gaming Den members.

To the Italics: I am homebrewing. I just need some of you guys' help with the basic mechanics.

To the Underlined: A semi-supernatural high school drama Modern RPG, ala Sailor Moon, Great Teacher Onizuka, Harry Potter, where the PCs are mid-high school students with wacky adventures, from the pitfalls of peer pressure to the odd "Evil Genius/Demon/Overlord." Yes, I know that you might think that I'm on drugs, but I'm not.

I may also want to make a "gangster" campaign, like this:
http://mafia.lrgames.com/
Also, guys, what are your opinions on "Tony Digerolamo's Complete Mafia for d20? Knowing a lot of you, it might be "It Sucks!"

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190861905[/unixtime]]
To the Underlined: A semi-supernatural high school drama Modern RPG, ala Sailor Moon, Great Teacher Onizuka, Harry Potter, where the PCs are mid-high school students with wacky adventures, from the pitfalls of peer pressure to the odd "Evil Genius/Demon/Overlord." Yes, I know that you might think that I'm on drugs, but I'm not.

Seriously? Why didn't you just say that? You want Teenagers from Outerspace.

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190861905[/unixtime]]

To the Italics: I am homebrewing. I just need some of you guys' help with the basic mechanics.

You haven't actually decided on a system so that would be kinda hard to help you in that area.

To the Underlined: A semi-supernatural high school drama Modern RPG, ala Sailor Moon, Great Teacher Onizuka, Harry Potter, where the PCs are mid-high school students with wacky adventures, from the pitfalls of peer pressure to the odd "Evil Genius/Demon/Overlord." Yes, I know that you might think that I'm on drugs, but I'm not.

BESM, seriously. Just don't use the d20 version it just bad. You could also just use Tri-Stat dx

I may also want to make a "gangster" campaign, like this:
http://mafia.lrgames.com/
Also, guys, what are your opinions on "Tony Digerolamo's Complete Mafia for d20? Knowing a lot of you, it might be "It Sucks!"

Can't really tell you, since that is really not my thing.


EDIT: I second Neeek's suggestion

Leress at [unixtime wrote:1190862452[/unixtime]]

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1190861905[/unixtime]]

To the Italics: I am homebrewing. I just need some of you guys' help with the basic mechanics.

You haven't actually decided on a system so that would be kinda hard to help you in that area.

To the Underlined: A semi-supernatural high school drama Modern RPG, ala Sailor Moon, Great Teacher Onizuka, Harry Potter, where the PCs are mid-high school students with wacky adventures, from the pitfalls of peer pressure to the odd "Evil Genius/Demon/Overlord." Yes, I know that you might think that I'm on drugs, but I'm not.

BESM, seriously. Just don't use the d20 version it just bad. You could also just use Tri-Stat dx

I may also want to make a "gangster" campaign, like this:
http://mafia.lrgames.com/
Also, guys, what are your opinions on "Tony Digerolamo's Complete Mafia for d20? Knowing a lot of you, it might be "It Sucks!"

Can't really tell you, since that is really not my thing.


EDIT: I second Neeek's suggestion

Oh yeah, I'm going to check out BESM!

wrote:fuckin riot... haha

"Don't use d20 modern!"
"Use what then?"
"Don't ask me!"

Perhaps this needs some explaining for you Sigma.

Some guy has asked about a wide range of rpgs, repeatedly, even on this thread, gotten discussions of many, then decided, after having some good ones recommended and some bad ones critiqued to...

CONSIDER USING ONE OF THE BAD ONES.

His response to "Don't do that, that is dumb" isn't a valid request for a recommendation.

Its just him pushing the same weird"You all think everything sucks, can I have Frank on record saying that?" agenda.

Really, strip away the excess and you have "Hey, how is Shadow Run and D20modern and everything else ever?"

"Shadow Run is OK, D20modern sucks, everything else ever is out there existing and being an option and stuff"

"So I'm thinking of using d20modern."

"Don't do that"

"OK then smart ass, which RPG is perfect then?"

He isn't on a never ending quest for the perfect RPG, he is on a never ending quest to fabricate some sort of proof that the Gaming Den is full of negative meanies who don't like any RPG ever.

Its so obvious its like he wears it on a sign around his neck.

As for the validity of criticising "negative" advice in RPG selection...

Its like talking to a guy with one leg and saying "Hey I'm thinking of walking on the beach, or maybe on a mine field".

"Don't walk on minefields."

"Where should I walk then smart ass?"

"Not on mine fields"

I'm sorry, but that IS good advice.